Godly Discipline

All right. Well, let's pray. And then we'll look into God's Word together, all right? Father, thank you for our time together. Help us now as we consider what your Word has to say. More than that, Father, help us to do what your Word says.

Help us not just to be hearers, but doers as well. Lord, help us to do it for your glory and the good of our children. Help us to do this so that your name would be honored. Now, Lord, give us insight as we look into your word now. In Jesus' name, amen. Before we start, let me just mention there's tons of resources back there, books and booklets that you might find interesting or helpful.

You can sign up for them. We'll order those for you. The prices are there. A lot of those booklets are pretty good little resources for things that you face. All right, tonight we want to talk about discipline. You know what it's like when you're going to spank your child.

As you walk into the room where you're going to spank him, he looks at you and says innocently, Dad, what is that in your hand? As if he's never seen a paddle before. Or worse, when you take your little girl in and she's looking at you and her eyes are starting, you can see the tears welling up. They're just about ready to spill over. And she looks at you and says, Daddy, I love you.

Right? It's always a good one. It's really hard to do what's necessary at that point. But then maybe you're unfamiliar with the use of physical discipline. The thought of spanking your child may seem repulsive to you. If so, then hear what the scripture says tonight as we look at what it says concerning the rod, the rod's use in the task of parenting.

Now, again, I would say listen carefully to what the Bible says. It might surprise you because too often what people hear is a caricature of what the Bible really says. And one of the first truths you need to hear is that the rod is not the only means of raising your child. Look at Ephesians 6.4, our text for this series. Ephesians 6, 4, Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

Again note the basic plan that God reveals here concerning our children Fathers you the ones in charge You the ones who set the parameters and the ground rules and the policies and everything else Fathers you the ones ultimately responsible for your children Be careful that you don bring them up in such a way that makes them angry resentful people either impulsively anger or passively anger Whatever the case may be be careful that you don work with them in such a way that they not Such a way that they become angry, resentful people. And then you've got a goal. You want to bring them up.

You have a goal to bring them up to be godly, independent disciples who love God and serve God, who love their neighbor and serve them, and who can handle life by handling the word of God. You have a goal you want to reach with them. All right? So the first thing to note in chapter 6, verse 4 is this. Bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. the first thing to note is that discipline is not the only means God gives for raising your children.

It must be connected with teaching, with communication. This is not an appeal tonight for parents to become strict disciplinarians, but rather that they do not ignore one important means of raising your children, which is discipline. Now listen, we've been caricatured, and sadly I'm afraid the caricature is true, that Christians believe in spanking, and so if you're a strict disciplinarian, your child will do well.

And the point is, discipline is only one of the rails that leads to the destination. If our destination is godly, independent disciples or equipping them for life in a fallen world, that destination is reached by means of two rails. If you can imagine this, two rails that make a track. those two rails are teaching and discipline if you only discipline what you have is children who toe the line while they're in your home and then when they're done they'll say well that's what dad always wanted i don't need to do that anymore if all you do is teaching they may never learn the lesson and it gets frustrating but if you have both you have the discipline that makes that sees that the lesson is learned but you also have the teaching and building inner convictions so that when they leave your home, they be godly independent disciples because they believe the right things So you need both of them That the first thing I want to say to you tonight Is even though we looking at one of those rails don't think that this is the most important or that this is the only thing you do.

Should we discipline our children? Absolutely. The Bible says we should. But that's only one rail. The other is teaching. So tonight we want to look at the one rail of discipline and next week look at the other, which is teaching or communicating with our children so first of all i want to employ god's means of discipline if i'm going to reach that goal of equipping them for life in a fallen world to live for god then i need to have this rail down i need to lay down this rail and that is discipline so what should we say about this one first of all well you've got to have certain convictions that are necessary for disciplining your children what must you be convinced of what what what must you have as a conviction if you're going to discipline your children the way God says so first you have to be convinced that God commands you to use the rod God actually commands you to do it he says here in Ephesians 6 4 bring them up in the discipline of the Lord and in Proverbs 19 18 you read, discipline your son, for in that there is hope.

Do not be a willing party to his death. You see how high the stakes are. Don't be a willing party to his death. And then we look at Proverbs 23, 13. Proverbs 23, 13. Do not withhold discipline from a child.

If you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol. Okay, that's pretty clear, isn't it? You spank your children, they're not going to die. But if you don't spank them, they'll end up in destruction. So God commands you to use the rod and you've got to use it whether or not the latest experts agree with you or not.

You have to use it whether you think it's necessary or not you must use it because god commands it and he and you believe his ways are better than the latest things that the latest study the latest things contrived by man in his fallen wisdom you must use it god commands it okay you got to be convinced of that if you not you going to be wishy in this area of discipline you be listening to all the latest things that come out things that inevitably will change so forth You got to be convinced that authority is good and appropriate It's good and appropriate. Our culture has an animosity towards authority. We're in a culture right now that says, if you have authority, then almost inevitably you're going to abuse it. and so there's this great suspicion of authority in our culture today there's all this stuff that's about abuse of power and we we have to understand um even even we have to understand our literature as power plays right this is one group trying to get the edge over another group and whatever the case may be but god loves authority and he hates rebellion god loves authority hates rebellion In 2 Kings chapter 2, you read the story of some teenagers who were making fun of a prophet.

They called him old bald head, right? The prophet who had the authority of God behind him, they called him an old bald head. You know what happened to those teenage boys? God sent a couple of bears and mauled them to death. I don't have that kind of power and probably would misuse it if I did. Nevertheless, God hates rebellion.

There's an example of it. In Romans chapter 13, he says, every authority that's been established has been established by God. So obey the authorities that are over you. Okay? Look at Proverbs chapter 30. Proverbs 30 verse 17 the eye that mocks a father and scorns to obey a mother will be picked out by the ravens of the valley and eaten by the vultures that gives you an idea what God thinks about rebellion doesn't it right by the way I can remember this just totally disconnected to this right now this just brings back a memory for me I preached that text as a a Mother's Day sermon one time about the ravens picking out your eyes and there was, I won't tell you who it was this was a number of years ago there was a little guy sitting right here on the front row and when I was preaching that he was sitting there like this he was sitting there like this this.

I got to the point about the ravens picking out your eyes. Be that as it may. That's what God says. You're rebellious, you deserve the ravens to pick your eyes out if you're rebellious against your parents. And notice, if you tolerate a child's rebellion, you mock God's authority and you expose them to God's judgment. If you love them, you will teach them to submit to authority.

If you don't discipline them, if you don't think your authority is good and appropriate and you don't use it for the glory of God or to do what God has called you to do, you are in essence mocking God's authority and exposing them to his judgment. Because if you don't use the rod, the Bible says they punish him with the rod and save his soul from death. Right?

Right. So you don't mock God and don't expose your children to God's judgment because they will be if they're not corrected. Notice this, that the Trinity is inherently authoritative and hierarchical. Now, I don't think we need to go look at all the verses that we have here. We just went over them a few a number of weeks ago as we talked about the Trinity.

And you remember what we talked about. The Trinity is the original community. Can you think that way? The Trinity is the original community. Before there was any creation, before there were any created beings, the Creator formed a community. And God created humanity to glorify the beauty of that transcendent community.

The members of the Trinity are equal in value and relate to one another in a hierarchical way, in an ordered hierarchy. And they delight to have it that way. The son delights in submitting to the father. The spirit delights in submitting to the son and the father. One of the lessons of the Trinity is that God loves what we despise. Namely, God loves and embraces rightful authority submission relationships.

One writer put it this way, I recently witnessed this exchange Mom asked her grade school age daughter to help set the table Why should I set the table the daughter answered resentfully I tired of doing your work Set the table yourself None of my friends have to set the table Why should I be different? How should love respond? It would call this mother to discipline her child in love.

Why? The eternal and temporal consequences of this rebellion are deeply disturbing. Someday, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. The day will come when we will go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against God. For their worms shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

Isaiah 66 verse 24. It is impossible to believe this, love your children and not discipline them. So believe that authority is good and appropriate. You have to be convinced that discipline leads to life that is good. Again, Hebrews 6, 1 through 3, he says, children obey your parents so that what? This is the first commandment with a promise and what is the promise someone tell me it'll go well with you and what you live a long life you have a good life you have a long life now it doesn't mean um it doesn't mean that if you obey your parents you're never going to get in a car accident that'll kill you but all things being equal if things go normally in your life obeying your parents are going to lead to a longer life and a good life now you may sit some of you young people may be sitting here thinking yeah that doesn't seem possible not with my parents i'm telling you this is what god says it isn't what we're saying it's this isn't a propaganda thing to get our kids to obey us this is what God says.

In Proverbs 19, 18, he says, discipline your son, for in that there is hope. Do not be a willing party to his death. Proverbs 23, 13 and 14, do not withhold discipline from from a child. If you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death. So the use of the rod, and by the way, this comes from Ted Tripp I not going to take credit for this This is from Ted Tripp in his book Shepherding a Child Heart Okay The use of the rod is a rescue mission Okay How so?

Well, if what Proverbs says is correct, that do not be a willing party to his death by withholding discipline, and if you discipline him, the rod will save his soul from death. This is what Tripp says, and I love it. There is a circle of safety, okay? And that circle of safety is the place where you honor and obey your parents. When you honor and obey your parents, if you don't honor and obey your parents, you're outside of the circle of safety.

Because what? God promises a good life and a long life, okay? If you obey. And if you're outside, you need rescue. And the rod is part of the rescue mission that brings you back into the circle of safety. That helps you honor and obey your parents so those promises are fulfilled.

So think of discipline that leads to a life that is good and that the rod, the use of the rod is a rescue mission. It saves their souls from death. Okay? You have to be convinced that discipline is an expression of love. Discipline is an expression of love. What did Jesus say in Revelation 3, verse 19?

He whom I love, I rebuke. Right? I reprove, I discipline. The one I love, I discipline. Proverbs 13, 24. He who spares the rod hates his son. but he who loves him is careful to discipline him now ask yourself why don't I spank my child and oftentimes the reason is I don't want to spank my child because I don't want them to hate me I don't want them to dislike me if I spank them then they're going to not like me and it's going to be uncomfortable and I don't want them to hate me the issue is who are you thinking of at that moment are you thinking of him or her you're thinking of you you're thinking of you discipline is an expression of love because you don't want to be a willing party to the death of your child.

Okay It an expression of love Some folks say well I loved him too much I didn discipline him I guess I loved him too much No it didn It means you didn love him enough Discipline is an expression of love Now look, I understand discipline can be perverted in our sinful hearts and so forth, and it can be an expression of retribution and hate. I understand that. But the Bible clearly says that if you want children who will honor God, you're going to discipline them.

You're going to discipline them. And that is a loving thing to do. It's loving to do that. Okay? Always remember this. And look, I'm no stranger to this.

Frankly, I did not like spanking my children. Some of them were easier than others. That's for certain. But, you guys, you're really somber tonight. Must be thinking of the eagles. you're not thinking of anything i'm telling you anyway you got to be convinced it is an act of love you have to be convinced now listen you have to be convinced that discipline is an expression of faith how so god has told you to use the rod and you obey not because you perfectly understand how it works but because God has commanded it it is an expression of confidence in God's wisdom and the excellency of his counsel it is an act of faith all right too many people say it just doesn't work well we'll talk about that in a little bit but I I don't want to use it it just doesn't work well what does God say God says use it use the rod discipline your children why because god says so believe him trust him he has a better idea than you do okay so it's an it's an expression of faith you have to be convinced that that discipline imparts wisdom proverbs 29 15 the rod of correction imparts wisdom but a child left to himself disgraces his mother.

Okay? The rod of correction imparts wisdom. Now, a fool who doesn't live by wisdom, a fool lives by lusts and wants. He lives out the immediacy of his lusts, his cravings, his expectations, his hopes and his fears. He's driven by his wants and his passions. And that's how children are.

They're driven by those things. And they've got to learn that that's not the way to live. You don't live by your wants and your desires and your passions. You live a prudent life. You don't live by what you want to do. And so discipline gives them, imparts wisdom to them.

They find out quickly following those things is not a good thing. Now, when I come to this, I always remember one little boy in our church. I won't mention his name. He's a pastor now of a church in Marion. But when he got to first grade, he decided that he did not like all-day school. And so he asked the teacher to go to the bathroom.

The teacher said okay. So he just headed out the door. As soon as he hit the sidewalk, he took off running and got home. Well, his mom told him, you can't do that. Don't you know how important an education is? Education is important.

You need to stay in school. Next day, he went to school, asked to go to the bathroom, and he took off again, showed up at home. And his mom again gave him a lecture on how important education is. the next time he did it his dad told him you do that any more time and you are going to have a warm bottom and you're going to regret it and that little boy got real wise real fast he he found out that education really was a good thing all right here's the point children get wisdom from the rod don't doubt god on this okay don't doubt god spanking drives foolishness from the heart and leads the child to the path of wisdom and life.

Okay? You must be convinced that discipline is corrective, not punitive. Now look how God works with us. God is the perfect Heavenly Father. And, as such, He is a model for us. now the the hebrew christians that are the the objects or the recipients of this book were going through hardships they were going through persecution and of course the question that goes through your mind is God must not care for us if he bringing these hard times into our lives And he trying to convince them that the hardships the persecution that they facing the being thrown in jail, the being ridiculed, the loss of their property, that actually was the discipline of the Lord, not because he was angry with them, but because he loved them.

Now how do you respond when hardship comes into your life? Is the first question in your mind, what have I done wrong? God must be mad at me? Or is the first thing that comes in your mind is things are going pretty bad here because God loves me and he's doing this to help me. Look at what it says in Hebrews 12, beginning in verse 5. And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him for the Lord disciplines the one he loves and chastises every son whom he receives it is for discipline that you have to endure God is treating you as sons for what son is there whom his father does not discipline if you're left without discipline in which all have participated then you are illegitimate children and not sons besides this we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them shall we not much more be subject to the father of spirits and live for they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them but he disciplines us for our good that we may share his holiness for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it now notice this is telling us that when hardship comes into our life, God is not saying, I'm going to get you for that, right? I'm going to make you pay for the wrong that you've done. No, the discipline comes into our life because we're going in the wrong direction and he loves us enough to correct us and put us on a path that's going to lead to holiness, righteousness, and peace.

You see, and so when we discipline our children, and sometimes this is what goes through our minds, boy, son, you've made my life miserable. Now I'm going to make your life miserable. I'm going to make you pay for what you've done. That's wrong. We discipline not to pay. We discipline them to correct them.

We discipline them so that they learn to go down the right path instead of the wrong path Your discipline must be corrective never punitive Do you see that If God were punitive none of us would be sitting in here If God discipline was punitive then what it would be, the earth would open up and swallow us and we'd all fall into hell. But God is not punitive. Jesus has already paid the price, so the discipline he sends our way is because he loves us and it's to correct us, move us in the right direction.

And that has to be how you look at your discipline. It's not to get back at your kid. It's to help him see the right way and to move in the right direction. You have to be convinced that discipline expresses the fear of God. You see, the fear of God makes us willing to discipline. It motivates us to persist in discipline.

The fear of God reminds us that failure to discipline has consequences. Look at 1 Samuel chapter 2 sometime. 1 Samuel chapter 2 is the story of Eli who has two sons, Hophni and Phinehas. And they are priests at the temple. And they do all kinds of wicked things at the temple. They're doing unbelievably wicked things.

Because Eli never corrected his children. He never corrected his children. What happened? You know what happened? It cost them their lives. It cost him his life.

And God took the priesthood away from his family. That branch of the priestly line was eliminated. No more priests come from that family, the loss of the priesthood. The fear of God reminds us that failure to discipline has consequences. William Harvey, in his book Gospel-Powered Parenting, once observed a mother who spanked her toddler because the girl looked at mom, turned around, and walked the other way.

And so he writes this. That was impressive, Harvey said. What motivated you? the fear of God the young mother answered I looked at the cross and saw God's verdict about my child's rebellion to most this sin is a small thing but I know that God doesn't see it that way my daughter's self-will caused Christ's crucifixion I thought of the price Jesus paid and then the price my precious daughter would pay if I did not teach her the humility that produces obedience so I spanked see this is a mom who has a big view right there's justice coming and if I don't correct my children they will face the awful retribution of God justice and so I want to correct her and teach her humility so she repent and go to the cross The fear of God also equips parents to overcome the fear of their children.

You say, what are you talking about? Because parents, believe it or not, young people, parents think this way. That is, I'm afraid that my children will be disappointed. I'm afraid my children won't like me. I'm afraid that if I spank them and I'm consistent in it, they'll turn away from me. They'll become rebels.

And the point is you can disappoint your children, but you dare not disappoint God. Those who fear God are free to be God-pleasers rather than people-pleasers, parents. So I fear God so I'm not driven by the fear of man, which is the fear of what my children, how my children might respond. now here comes the question that we all we always ask when should i discipline when should i discipline when is it proper to discipline here's the first answer and i think the most important one the one that that helped personally helped me sort these things out and that is you should exercise discipline whenever the attitude or actions of your child would keep him from achieving God's goal.

Do you get all over him because he put his shoes on the wrong feet? Because he forgot to put away the wash rag? Because he dropped the phone? But then you let him get away with throwing a fit or sulking, right? Keeping God's goal in mind helps you sort those out. Sort out those times when you need to apply the rod.

I'm always asking my question, are they doing something now? Or is the attitude they're expressing or the words they're saying, are those things, if I didn't correct, will that lead them to the goal or lead them away from the goal? If they're expressing an attitude or saying something or openly rebelling in their behavior, and I look at that and say, if I don't stop that, that will continue.

And if that continues, they will not reach the goal. so therefore because that is going to keep them from reaching the call goal i need to discipline them now there are other times when it's not has anything to do with that goal right has nothing to do with that it's it's I'm tired, right? I'm just tired. I don't want to deal with this. Well, that's not a good enough reason to discipline your children, all right?

That's the one that pops into my mind. Or the fact that they just are kids and it just irritates you. That's not a good enough reason, right? If it's going to keep them from reaching the goal. You exercise discipline whenever there's disobedience. And listen, do not beg, do not cajole, do not bribe, do not distract.

Okay? Deal with the disobedience. Remember what's at stake. Because he's disobeyed, he's moving out of the circle of safety. You have to deal with that. Remember that you train by what you do.

When you say, okay, I'm going to count to three, you've just told them, you're teaching them that immediate obedience is not necessary. You've got a little bit of lag time. You still can disobey me up to that point. All right? And typically when you're starting to do stuff like that, they can disobey you way beyond that point. Because someone who does that is someone who doesn't want to deal with their kids.

And listen, it's, you know, here's how, okay, I have a desire not to discipline my child, right? So I say, okay, I'm going to count to three. Now, here's the deal. Desires are always deceptive. What are we doing? We're saying, you know, if I count to three, somehow, somehow wonderfully and magically, they're going to say, oh, I better obey.

Right? You know what you find? You get to three and they're still not obeying. okay so you try something else right and and the point is we we think suddenly magically they're going to suddenly obey because they want to it doesn't happen that way um so don't you apply the rod whenever disobedience occurs you you've got to remember that you got to remember that um well i got a question in my mind but maybe you'll ask the question later you should exercise discipline immediately when you tell your child to do something and he doesn don hesitate don start trying to convince him of the fairness of your directive or argue with him or then try to distract him Okay?

Now don't go out that door. He walks over to the door. Don't go out that door. And he stands there and he puts his hand on the doorknob. See, now, listen, if you go out, it's really cold outside. You're not going to like it.

You're going to get sick. now listen I told you now don't go out turn the door knob okay some parents think they have to convince their children that what they're telling them is right and that if I just argue with them long enough they will see the rightness of my position and will come around and so they so what happens is they stand there and they argue with their children for the next 15 minutes. And at the end of 15 minutes, almost always, listen, so you argue with your child, it's been 15 minutes, all of a sudden he says, have you ever seen this? You know, Dad, I never thought of that.

Okay, 7-year-old. I hadn't thought about that, Dad. You're right. Okay, I won't do that. You ever seen that happen? No.

What happens is we start training legalistic lawyers, attorneys, who can figure out all the loopholes. That's what happens. You see? So exercise immediately. Don't discipline immediately. Don't try to distract them.

All those. Don't discipline by idle threat either. Okay? Okay. Now, if you don't obey, I remember one time. I don't know if I mentioned this here already.

Maybe I did. Calvin was about, I don't know, three, maybe three. And he was giving us grief. We wanted to go to the store and he did not want to go. He just was putting up a fuss. So I said, Calvin, listen, listen now.

You come with us. If you don't, we're just going to leave you here. Now, were we going to leave him there? No, there's no way we're going to leave him there. You don't leave a four-year-old at home all by himself, but you know, you give him an idle threat. So I said hey you come with us or you leave or you going to stay here Do you know what his response was I stay What do you do now Come on right Don't discipline by idle threat.

Bring the discipline on immediately. And listen, I think this is important. One last point here. Okay? There we go. don't use spanking as a last resort. A couple of things.

Wisdom is imparted when the rod is applied. And the rod does a lot better at the early stages of their growth than a good sound argument. The other thing is, if you use it as a last resort, It's like apologizing for God. Okay, God, I say you know you do it, but, you know, that's pretty tough and that's pretty hard. I'm only going to use that as a last resort.

All right? Don't do that. God doesn't say, try everything else. If nothing else works, use the rod. He says, use the rod. It imparts wisdom.

Use it. So use it immediately. now there's a lot of objections to discipline so let's talk about the objections but what if of course we've talked about this already i love my children too much to spank them well we've already talked about these proverbs 13 24 he who spares the rod hates his son but he who loves him is careful to discipline him. Discipline your son for in that there is hope.

Do not be a willing party to his death. You don't love him too much to spank him. In fact, if you don't spank him, the Bible says you hate him. Why? Because you're not thinking of his good. You're thinking of your comfort.

Okay. So let's get rid of that one. I'm afraid it will make him rebellious and angry. okay proverbs 29 17 discipline your son and he will give you peace he will bring the light to your soul all right and then my favorite my favorite one is this one it just doesn't work i can imagine i can help but think some of you are sitting here thinking that It doesn work Well here what I learned in my experience as a pastor and as a dad First of all, when you say it doesn't work, you're saying, God, I know you're omniscient and infinitely wise.

You know us inside and out and how we are made, but I think this is a bad idea and some other people have come up with better ideas. Okay? God, you know everything, but this is not a good idea. You're infinitely wise, but God, I know what you say, God, but it just doesn't work with my kid. All right? How about this?

Inconsistent use of the rod. What I have found, oftentimes, when parents tell me it doesn't work, it doesn't work, a lot of times they're inconsistent. The child never knows what's going to get a spanking. On this day, you know, on this day, slapping mom gets me a spanking. On that day, slapping mom doesn't get me anything. So I get a spanking here, but not here and here.

And then another time, I might get another spanking. Then maybe for something, I'll get a spanking. It's inconsistent. You're not consistent. It's not going to work if you're inconsistent. All right? or failure to persist.

Many parents think this is going to change the child overnight. And it doesn't. So I tell my son, remember to put the tools away in the garage where they belong when you're done with it. They're in this project and they're building it. And so they don't. So you say, son, you know what I told you.

I'm going to discipline you. Spank them. And then the next night they're working on their project and you go out and you find the tools are still laying around. So you spank them again. And then the next night you find the same thing and you say, it doesn't work. Listen, you've got to persist.

You've got to persist. Children do not change overnight. By the way, have you changed overnight? No. Thank you, Kelly. All right.

Failure to be effective. failure to be effective does the child even know he's been spanked right we've all done this what do you do when you spank your Then he looks at you and says, I didn't hurt. You say, oh, well, what am I going to do now? I know what I did. I said, okay, well, let's have another go at it then. Okay? Now, that may sound cruel.

It's not, though. It's not. It needs to be effective. It needs to say something. Okay? Okay? oh i'll i'll refrain from telling you grand grandchildren stories right now i'll leave that to their parents because they anyway where i've been ineffective or they have been ineffective for a moment huh all right discipline and uncontrolled anger james chapter 1 verses 19 and 20 tells us the Anger of man does not work the righteousness of God.

Now again, let me say this. James is not saying that your anger is always wrong. He's talking about anger that's ungodly. Our typical anger does not work the righteousness of God. Most of the time when we're angry, we're angry for the wrong reasons, and then we express it the wrong way. Always think about this.

This is how I envision it in my mind. there are two hurdles you have to get over before you can say this is righteous anger. The first is what motivated that anger. And if you're honest with yourself, you will note that most of the times you're angry, it's because you've been inconvenienced or your kingdom has been attacked or your preferences have been ignored or you didn't get what you wanted.

It's very rarely, let's be honest, very rarely do we get angry because God's been dishonored. okay so the first hurdle to get over is why am i angry the second hurdle to get over before you can say it's righteous anger is how did i express that anger if i come out swinging and slapping and throwing people around then i may have the right motivation but the expression is wrong okay so two hurdles will get you to righteous anger the point that that we're we're talking about here is james says this this ungodly uncontrolled kind of anger will not work the righteousness of God. And then one reason why spanking may not work or the rod may not work is it the only means you use You don talk to your children You don get to know your children You don teach your children It the only thing you use And that's not what God has said. Remember, he's told us there are two rails that lead to the destination, teaching and discipline.

So if discipline is the only thing you use, it may not be effective. Especially, it won't have done its job. If there's no teaching, your child will obey you as long as as long as he's bigger stronger faster and as long as you're bigger stronger faster and smarter than he is but every kid gets to be bigger stronger faster and smarter than you and then it doesn't do any it hasn't done any good okay and then here's one i think that's real important it will make him an abuser now i have to choose whether i will believe God or the latest quote-unquote scientific study.

And I'm tempted to go into a whole big thing here about psychology and sociology as a science. I put that in quotes. I don't know that you can put people into situations and expect the exact same outcomes every single time, which is the scientific method. Be that as it may, just because spanking occurred in an abusive home does not mean that's what caused the abuse.

You with me? Correlation is not causation. Did I get it right? Just because something happens to accompany something else, it doesn't mean it caused it. Well, you say, but then what about these studies that show that people turn out to be abused Abusers, when they come out of abusive homes, I'll tell you what it is. It's not necessarily the physical part of it that turned them into abusers.

It's they've lived a life with uncontrolled anger as the model. The idea of living life in a totally uncontrolled fashion. That's what does it. what's modeled before them is a life of somebody out of control. It's not necessarily the spanking. In fact I would suggest to you that a lot of violence exists today because the rod was not used Because we all born sinful depraved creatures Violence is born in our hearts And without correction without correction that violence can find full flower.

So because the rod, I think there's a lot of angry, angry, angry people today because we've got a whole generation of people who know nothing about the rod. and so they haven't experienced discipline and because they haven't been experienced discipline they haven't been corrected their hearts are just coming to full flower with the depravity that's born into a human heart all right now what are the fruits of the rod what fruits of the rod does the bible tell tell us the rod teaches your children that there are inevitable outcomes to disobedience. There are inevitable outcomes to disobedience. You disobey, there's punishment.

By the way, that's the way the world operates, right? If you don't show up to work, you don't get paid, right? If you, if you, you know, if you speed, you get a ticket. They need to learn early that there are inevitable outcomes to disobedience. The rod shows God's authority over mom and dad. We talked about this earlier.

When you spank your children, you need to tell them, I'm doing this because God tells me to. And if I don't, I will disobey God. And so you are expressing to them the fact that they're not only under authority, but you are under authority as well. The rod trains a child to be under authority. Outcomes teach the importance of obedience. He learns while he's young that God places everyone under authority and that authority structures our blessing.

So they learn that I live under authority. You know, our kids all need to learn that right now they have two bosses, mom and dad, and mom and dad may be making your life miserable, But when you leave mom and dad, you've got tons more people in charge than you had before. And this teaches them to live under authority. The rod demonstrates parental love and commitment.

Hebrews 12 teaches that discipline should be something that encourages us Because it shows God love And so too with us because it shows us it shows your children that you not an uninterested party You're vitally interested in what they think and say and do. You're vitally interested in that. Isn't that what Hebrews 12 says? If we're not disciplined, we're illegitimate, right?

We're like illegitimate children. if if you know if someone has an illegitimate child over there what happens he tends to ignore him he doesn't want to recognize that one right but we're not illegitimate god takes a vital interest in us and so it is with our children it demonstrates our parental love and commitment to them the rod yields a harvest of peace and righteousness okay um that's what god does with us he brings hardship or discipline into our life so that we know the peaceful fruit of righteousness. Now the last thing to get, and if you don't get anything tonight, get this, all right? An essential truth for all discipline is this, relationship is everything.

What I'm saying here, and by the way, I'm quoting my dear wife Rebecca on this. This is her phrase, relationship is everything if you don't have a relationship with your children your discipline won't be effective if you're an absentee parent or if you just if the only the only communication you have with your children is when they're doing something wrong and you step in and discipline them it's not going to be effective relationship is everything it grows out of relationship we talked about this yesterday in our counseling class and i believe it was lon gantz who said somebody in his life i don't remember who he mentioned said this rules without relationship leads to rebellion i think that's good rules without relationship leads to rebellion right so um relationship is everything is everything can i just say this in in terms of me and Becca's parents, we believed that if we were going to have any impact in our children's lives at all, we had to build relationships with them. We had to spend time with them.

We had to talk to them. enter into their worlds. We had to do all kinds of things so that play with them, just play with them, so that there'd be a relationship there. Because with the relationship, right, the discipline will be effective. That's the way God works with us. God is vitally involved with us. We have a relationship with him.

He's involved in every aspect of our life and so that's why his discipline means something so what do you think of the rod I pray that you have God's view of this means of parenting children we live in an age that constantly challenges us challenges us to live by faith and using the rod is living by faith and the world around us is going to challenge that all the time the question is are we going to believe God and act on what he says. All right. Well, if you have any questions, fire away.

And for those listening somewhere else, I'll try to repeat the question. Levi. Levi. What do you do with the raw metaphor? Pardon me. Yeah.

Yeah. Well. Yeah. Well, when you read the Proverbs. Oh, thank you. What do you do with the argument that the rod is just a metaphor for discipline?

As you read the Proverbs, you don't look at things metaphorically unless there's something there. As you read those Proverbs in the Bible, you don't see very many metaphors there. If it's a metaphor, it should sound like one. It should be a simile. The rod is like, and things like that. but it's not written that way and you wouldn't read it that way. I think the main reason why people read it as a metaphor is they're uncomfortable with the idea of physical punishment.

And so they say well that just a metaphor Well okay I looking at one now The king heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord He turns it wherever he will Now, stream of water in the hand of the Lord, turning wherever he will. That's a metaphor, isn't it? That's clear because we all know that the heart, the inner man, is not a stream of water.

It's the inner man. But we don't read the king's heart metaphorically, right? There's no indication that it is. the plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance but everyone who is hasty comes only to poverty i don't see one metaphor in there at all okay why should i because there's no indication so just reading it from a literary viewpoint you know it's not it it doesn't sound like a metaphor And again I say, the main reason why people say that is because they're uncomfortable with the idea of physical punishment.

And so they say, oh, it's only a metaphor. Okay? Well, use an instrument. Okay? I didn't use a rod. We used a spoon or a paddle.

Sometimes a spaghetti server. With the teeth turned out, not in. Okay? Just to make that clear. All right. Here's another thing.

Let me piggyback out what Levi said. It was really popular for a while to say, oh, listen, always use a rod. Never use your hand. Because if you use your hand, they'll associate that with the discipline. And you don't want them to do that. What is that?

That's just goofy. What that is is Freudian. It's just Freud is what it is. somehow and they're unconscious they're going to associate your hand with discipline it's like no you use a rod oh boy i'm gonna say this i might get we get thrown in jail you use a rod because your because your hand displaces the force of the blow a rod stings more than your hand now that's not what proverbs is saying use a rod because it stings more than your hand okay but that that business is just silly.

Okay. We don use our hand because it too readily available Is that what you mean Are you doing this out of anger or are you just playing a job Okay, we don't use our hand because it's too readily available. You want to be able to not be angry. Is that essentially what it is? Right. Yeah.

Well, you know, someone had to think long and hard on that one. Let's think about this for a minute, okay? If you say, I don't discipline out of anger, okay, if you mean by that, I don't discipline with uncontrolled anger, I'm okay with that. But let's face it, if you're not angry when you're disciplining, the job's not going to get done. Anger is an energy given to change things.

Now, if you're out of control angry, that's another story altogether. Your anger must be under control. Okay? It must be under control. And whatever it takes to help you get control, do it. If it means I'm going to put the rod over here so I can go get it and have a chance to get under control, fine.

Then let's do that. But let's not make that a rule that says that's what you want to do. If you've got a problem with it, then say, okay, here's a means that I can use to keep my anger under control. I'll just use a rod that I'll put over there. Okay? I mean, if you have a problem, you can do other things.

You can say, okay, before I spank my child, I'm going to pray. I'm going to say quickly a prayer to God. God, help me. Help me to be under control. Help me to be able to talk to my child and to spank him in a way that gets the job done but does not take it out on him. Are you with me?

Does that make sense? Okay? Lee. What is immediate obedience for different ages? What's expected for different ages? Are you, once you give the command, what's expected for different children?

Yeah, what's immediate could be different for different children at different ages. Well, give me some examples. I mean, you know. Yeah, piggyback on that. Yeah little girl headed to the doorknob Don go out the door She smirks. Her attitude is saying, we'll go out the door.

Okay. Has she not disobeyed you yet? All right. Deal with it. Yeah. Because you want to get to the heart.

It imparts wisdom. You don't want her to get the impression either. She can smirk at you before she obeys you. Right? I can give you the stink eye before I have to do what you say. No.

No. Lee. So. So. Oh, okay. Well.

All right. Again, here's wisdom. Okay, you look at that and say, all right, I've got to give him a chance to look at it and think about it and process this. I'm really going to be in trouble if I don't. He's not in open rebellion yet. He's just going, okay.

You know, I mean, some of this, of course, is wisdom. Immediate. What is immediate? Like, all right, now, or is it just take that bite, and then they start getting down off the chair, right? so yeah okay yeah you don't want to discourage them but you have to remember okay if you're teaching and disciplining and part of not provoking them or taking the wind out of their sails okay generally speaking now alright is find ways of building that relationship.

Find ways of loving them and building that relationship. They're not doing bad all the time. Find those moments. Play with them. Tell them how much you love them. Hug them and kiss them.

Now, you can discourage them if you're getting after them for every little thing. Okay? Every little thing. Your shoes untied. You know, I've told you a million times, put your hat on. all those sorts of things you know one thing to keep in mind alright so when I'm talking about that sort of stuff that'll be But if they're disobeying, you need to help them, okay?

Am I answering your question, Lydia? No, I'm saying... Yeah. Yeah. Don't have a ton of rules. And don't be after them for every little thing.

Okay, let's think about this, all right? Now... Should I ever condone sin? No. Can I be forbearing? Okay.

So, again, you know, you can't cover everything in lecture. So think about this. God calls us also to forbearance, does he not? Now, again, I want to be careful here. I want to say, so don't worry about half of it. But sometimes we need to be forbearing. if they keep forgetting to put their hat on, is this because they're rebellious?

Do they really need to know to take care of this? Or is this just a kid forgetting his hat? Okay. Persistence. Yeah. Screaming at you in what way?

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It could be a long time. It certainly could. It certainly could.

Okay, there's a book out there called Withhold Not Correction by Bruce Ray. Bruce is really a cool guy. He's in fire. This is long before fire when he wrote that book. But, you know what? I read that book years ago, and there's one story in there.

There's one story in there that sticks out in my mind. I still remember it. He said there was this couple in his church, and they would spank their kids. And mom would say, honey, he's not sweet enough yet. You spank them until they're sweet enough. and by the way you not just wailing on him you saying honey look you angry with me I doing what God has told me to do and you are angry about it You cannot be angry with me about what I'm doing.

This is right. Your anger against what is right is wrong. Now, of course, Evelyn's not going to understand that lecture. But at least put it on her level in the sense of, honey, that's wrong. you cannot react that way. Okay? And that's what we face too.

Right? We all face that. Kids screaming and doesn't like it and I'm mad after you spank me. Well, you can't even be mad after I spank you. That attitude has to go. Okay.

Jeremy first. Yeah. Relationship is everything. That's exactly right. Yep. Remember what's written up there.

Carrie? Yeah. The rod does impart wisdom. And the first time they find out they can't be angry, it may be a little bit different next time. Maybe not. But stay with it.

Levi? Yeah, you're only getting one of the rails. Yeah, why isn't this just behavior modification? Yeah. Yeah. It needs to be accompanied by teaching.

Absolutely. Absolutely. It has to be accompanied by teaching. You have to be explaining it to them. You have to be telling them what's right and what's wrong. And by the way, there's even more than just the teaching.

And I'm not sure if I'm going to have time to get into this in this series, but you've got to get inside of them. You have to start understanding what's going on, what's driving them, what were they thinking what do they love what do they hate you got to be getting inside of them you got to understand what what their hearts are like Okay that is so important in this whole thing so that it not just conditioning It's going along with a relationship where I know you, and I take the time to get to know what's in your heart, and I'm teaching you what's right and what's wrong, and I'm creating an atmosphere of relationship, right? And so all of that plays into it, okay?

The problem with doing things like this is you can't think of it just as this boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I mean, you put it this way to understand, but the whole of life is, right? It's got all these interconnections that are going on all the time. So relationship, teaching, getting inside, discipline, all of those are always working all together.

Okay. All right, Jeremy. What if you have a child that just melts every time you go to do this? Yeah. Like, is that enough? Like, does the talk after the breakdown on their part, does that constitute the discipline we're discussing here?

Yeah, that's a really good question, Jeremy. Jeremy asked if, like, they just melt when you take them to get a spanking. Is that good enough? Boy. I don't know. I still think I'd want to give him a tap.

Just because, you know, I'm looking at the Bible and it says it's the rod that helps. It'd be interesting to see how long that lasted and if it was a cover. now some kids it's not a cover they just are heartbroken whenever you you know they are so sensitive right um i don't know i'm going to give you an i don't know on that one i hate that it might be worldly sorrow as opposed to godly repentance okay that's that's an interesting point lydia maybe it's just worldly sorrow and not godly repentance obviously you can tell i didn have that problem Yes Mary Yeah, that's a good, that's a really, is there a certain age where you withhold the rod? You know what?

I think it depends on the child. Okay, it depends on the child. And I haven't put together next week's lecture yet. So let me just kind of draw this for you, okay? All right. You got to really think hard because I'm not good at this, right?

So you make a vertical axis, are you with me, this way, and then a horizontal axis this way. Are you with me? If you want to draw this, it might be helpful. Vertical, horizontal. This is the age going across this. So going from left to right, they're growing older.

This vertical, you put teaching at the top and discipline... No, discipline at the top, teaching at the bottom. Are you with me? Okay? All right, now, draw an arrow from this corner down here. Right?

And draw one from here to here. Those are my arrows. Okay? Here's what you see. the older they get, the discipline seems to go down and the teaching goes up. Or you might put influence down here in parentheses under teaching. As discipline goes down, your influence should be growing.

All right, so that when they get older, you don't necessarily need the rod because they're learning those lessons and now your influence in your life has grown. Now again, you got to remember this, that influence grows as you love your children, and they know that, and you've developed a relationship with them, and so the teaching is taking hold, and so there's more teaching or more influence, less discipline. Now, where's the cutoff point?

I don't, I don't, the Bible doesn't tell us that, and I think part of that is just wisdom. There comes a point where spanking a 16-year-old probably won't do the job, right? I'm trying to remember. So... So... Mary, that's a good question.

I think that's wisdom. It depends on the child. My wife has a habit of joking with me now that when one of my kids, who are all adults now, do something that she doesn't like, she looks at me and says, they needed one more spanking. You quit too soon. They needed one more. So, again, I'm not going to tell you when some of our kids were getting spankings, but again, it depends on the child and all those other things.

That's a good question. Okay? Yes, Kara. Yeah. Yeah. The purpose of the gospel going forward.

That's good. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's quit. Because there's lots more questions, I'm sure.

Hopefully next week we'll fill in some of the gaps and so forth and help understand this a little more. Let's pray. Father, thanks again for tonight and for the time we've had. Thank you for your word, which is sufficient to teach us these things. Help us to be the kind of people that always look to your word and are critical thinkers of what's going on in our culture around us and to be tuned in to the word of God, which is sufficient to help us.

Thank you now in Jesus' name. Amen.