Church Planting As Missions Q&A

Wow, there's more that could be said there, but any questions at this point? You didn't have any last time. So I spent some time in Spain. This was like, I don't know, 10 years ago. I spent some time in Spain helping out some missionaries. All the ones that I was helping were associated with missionary agencies.

They were always in the red. And I guess my question would be, like, how much, like, overhead costs, like, mission agencies need money to run. Yeah. So when you as a missionary are going out and trying to gain support, does the mission agency, like, add an extra burden to the missionaries? Like, you have to raise this much money in order to go out to the missionaries with our agency.

Yeah. Right. You remember Jack and Polly Martin, again, right? $65,000 a year in salary, $125,000 in outgoing costs. 20% of both of those figures went directly to the organization. 20%. Those are real numbers. so 20% of their salary every month you do the math 20% of $65,000 went to the mission agency every month whatever their monthly salary was that's a tremendous burden they justify it because they say well we've got to do this logistics are expensive we have to pay the salaries of everybody in the home office and we have to do all of this.

But let me just say that not every agency is exactly the same. Some of them do better. They're a little more efficient than others. Now, the master's mission didn't take anything out for the longest time. And then when things got rough, that was the organization we were with. When things got rough, they decided they're going to start taking out 4%, right?

But they asked all the missionaries first. They said, would you guys be okay? Talk to your churches and ask your churches if you're okay with that. And so they did that. Now in their case the reason they didn have to take Indy out because everybody in the office were supported from their home churches Okay? So that was, we liked that model a lot.

That was one of the reasons in the early days that we went with them. Well, it just seemed like it was a lot of, like, these missionaries that, like, they didn't support me, like, I just went there. Right. You know, whatever. but that was really the eye-opening to me there was this stress we're always in bed and I don't see how we're going to get out of this we have to raise $800 a month for our support and I was like you guys seem to be doing okay I didn't really want to ask too many questions see that's our problem though we don't want to ask too many questions we should be asking the hard questions the church, and maybe not you asking those questions but their church ought to be saying what in the world is going on here?

They really should be. Hang on just one second. Somebody else in. Yeah, we support we don't have any homegrown missionaries that we support right now. We have missionaries where they have an ascending church and they have a relationship like what you described. What can our relationship look like with them to where we're supporting them but we're also getting in the way by logging them down, a relationship that they already have over here with their primary sin in church?

That's where church partnerships come in, in my mind, is that if we're going to support missionaries, we're also going to be involved in their churches somehow, even if it's just conversations between elders or leaders, something like that, because we have found in our experience that that opens up a whole realm of the relationship that isn't there when you just simply send, you know, maybe you're only 5% of their support or 10% of their support totally, right? And then you think, well, if we're only 10% of their support, what really can we say, you know, and what kind of influence can we have with them really? Because they do have, they're sending church, and they're sending church supports and, you know, a whole lot of money, and they got all this going on.

But I think having a relationship with their sending church helps with that It helps to broaden the relationship and actually gives you more input into the missionary work than you would have otherwise Because we have found that when churches see you taking the time to contact them because you love their missionary, that changes things for them. It really does. I know it would for us if we had a homegrown missionary and a church contacted us and said, hey, you guys support so-and-so, right?

We just really love them and what can we do to help? We're going to go, you know, and we're going to make sure it's biblical. So, yeah. Does that? Yeah. Okay.

Paul, give us some ideas, that mission agencies intending to serve the church, just taking care of the visa, logistics, stuff like that. What are the ways that they begin to serve the church? Well, it's in that knowledge thing. The more that they do, the more special knowledge that they have of what's going on. I mean, immigration was a huge part of us staying overseas.

It just was. Trying to keep us there. And doing all the paperwork and doing all the stuff that you had to do to stay there and to live there. And having this card and paying this fee and doing all that stuff. And having a security deposit actually in place in the government through the organization so that you can stay there. right all all of that stuff creates this sort of um the organization is in the know and knowledge is power is that what they say and uh and so they have the knowledge that way therefore if a if a if a decision comes up that has to be made and it's somehow connected to any part of that knowledge then the organization says well we're the ones with the knowledge So we're the ones that have to make that decision, number one.

Number two, this person is part of a whole organization, and we're not going to let you guys mess up this whole organization because you want to make some decision about your missionary. We've been told that. So they claim that knowledge, and they exert that authority because of that knowledge And then they also be saying we all in this together We all want to fulfill the Great Commission No worries here Sit down Calm yourself down And we're going, no.

It can't be that way. But then there's that. Let me just hang on to that. There's also the issue that the mission organizations see the church as dumb and stupid. Unable to do anything. You guys relinquished your responsibility a long time ago kind of thing.

And you can't do it now. So just sit down and let the professionals do it. How many times have we heard that in all kinds of things, including counseling? Right? Let the professionals do it. You know, the church might not do it perfectly, and it might not be a clean thing, but we still have to do it. right so well it can work there was a church in Pastor Vile out there in Indiana Faith, Faith, no Faith Faith Church they actually started to help church like us to get missionaries overseas and they would just help with finances and things like that but they were like totally hands off on on decisions or anything they they would just do the logistics and it didn't matter that they were in the know on certain things it was like no we're we're just going to do this and this you guys are doing everything else you're making the decisions So it can be done.

We even supported the Hines from our church. We processed their donations and we did everything an organization does. Now, I was part of that and had that knowledge kind of thing. Not every church has that. But sometimes in coalitions of churches, you could have that. You could have somebody that has that kind of knowledge and could set something up and you could actually do it. so the possibilities are there we just don't want to take it I don't know if it's because we're lazy or what but the opportunities are there if we're just willing to partner with other churches or do whatever we need to do to get it to happen we don't have to rely on the mission organizations and give them 20% of our salaries.

Well, I mean, that's not what I'm suggesting, but, you know, like, if you, if that kind of thing is not your church's strong suit, you know, how do you know what the next step is? Right. Like, do you contact the same people? Yeah, you have to do some homework. You have to call around. You have to find out through your connections and relationships or whatever.

What if there is an organization that you can work with that because one church, not all churches are the same. So so there it might be that this organization can actually help logistically, but they don't submit entirely to the local church. But maybe we could work with them. Every church is going to make decisions like that, where they're going to work with certain organizations that they think can actually make this happen.

But we have to be very careful, and that's where the leadership in the local church has to be very discerning and very wise in the decisions that are made for the sake of the missionary and just for the sake of the fulfillment of the Great Commission that God has entrusted to that church. So, yes, Lon. So I have two questions. I'm asking time together.

You made some reference already that the time on the field isn't life. It isn't a life or situation. It's more to the requirement of the event, what the Lord calls it. Yes. Right. In the event that they are or have been a lifer, they're going to retire.

They're going to retire in a situation with our missionaries. how do we approach this as they come off the field you know kind of the attitude of we don't want to let go of them we also need to know what their financial situation is you would want to you would want to know what their financial situation is but you're not their sending church right so I would contact their sending church and I would find out from their sending church you know some missionaries are wonderful folks, but they're not always entirely accurate on their information, which is another reason why you would want to talk with their sending church, because sometimes you get a clearer picture of the situation when you talk to the church. So I would start there and find out what the whole situation is, and then you make your decision on what to do If the church says you know we really haven we didn think about retirement so we not we not ready to we not financially ready to do anything with their retirement or whatever. Some organizations do that.

They have it all down to a T. It's like you're retiring from IBM or something. I mean, they got it all, the whole package deal, and you send them down to Florida, and that's, that's where they go. They do. It's a big, some of those organizations are down there and that's why because they have these ginormous retirement villages for their missionaries right that looks really appealing it does i don't know if my wife would want to retire there but so yeah you have to you have to you have to get all your information find out why they're in the present set of circumstances that they're in.

You know? So, was that two parts? He said there was two questions. It's just that, how long she doesn't need her. I'm just terrified of what you're saying. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. You're not saying that, you know, the white, the only way. No, no, no, no. In fact, sometimes you would want to only go into an area for a certain amount of time. It's going to be best to do that and just be there to accomplish what it is that you need to accomplish there and then move on. Sometimes missionaries stay in some places too long and they're a detriment to the work there.

Okay, Paul, talk about your team concept of missions. Okay, so here's what we've heard. Elders are the missionaries, which doesn't mean you can't go over as a medical doctor. but let's not call you a missionary but do you see that person as part of the team? Yeah. Okay, so how does that work then? It could look multiple different ways.

I mean, how does this church look? You know, you've got people here who are in doing things other than full-time ministry, all right? But when you're going into a culture like that, there's all kinds of immigration issues and why you're in the country and how you can stay in the country, whether you can declare what you're doing. My daughter went on an internship to several different countries with an organization that wasn a mission organization but you couldn even use the word missionary kind of thing So you had to be very careful how you declare and what you declare and all that kind of stuff.

But it could look any number of different ways. If we were to use Jack and Polly again as a medical missionary, the emphasis there would have to be or the question there would have to be where's the church somebody asked that I think your daughter has it where's the church in that situation is he operating from the vantage point of a local church there in that area because that's I would have a problem with that then because maybe they do need medical work I'm not saying don't deny medical assistance in a situation where there's a dire need we've been in situations where we've seen incredible needs, both with food and medical, basic necessities of life, a need level that's just like off the charts kind of thing. And if the church doesn't respond, who's going to, kind of thing, you know, or who's going to do it well anyway.

But is the church doing it? And does everybody know this is the church, right? And so I think if you're moving towards that, that's the important part of that, is that there is a church involved, there's a sending church involved, and there's a church plant going on there. You know, when Haiti underwent the things that happened down there with the weather and everything and hurricanes and everything, we sent money down there, but we sent it to a local church.

We didn't send it through any parachurch organization, but it took us a week to find a church that we could send money to that we could be confident that it was going to be used for church-related outreach and things that were happening in the area. And so we did that, and we were able to send it directly to them. That's where FIRE comes in. FIRE is very helpful with stuff like that because they're going to find the church-related ministries, and they're not going to have anything to do with non-church-related ministries, generally speaking.

I might say to the congregation, one of the things that Paul said to me years ago is when you give someone a cup of cold water in Jesus' name, make sure you mention Jesus. Yeah It really easy There all kinds of NGOs around the world non organizations doing all kinds of stuff And many of them are doing that as if they were the church. There are organizations that are doing it as if they were the church, but they don't have the accountability.

They don't have the church-based ministry focus at all. they're just an organization that's all they are they're not the church so i'm talking to you guys for years tell them what's about some of those things that are called missions that are over there and you've had tons of experience with them in kenya we have this mission to feed the hungry okay yeah we all want to feed the hungry so that's not the issue but how what does that look like on field, how did it, was it detrimental? Was it detrimental? Well, I'll tell you and I'll attach it directly to some of the things that we've been talking about, specifically leadership development.

Okay? When we first got to Kenya, we were involved, we were actually supposed to go to a Bible school. I was supposed to teach at a Bible school, but there was some stuff happened and we ended up not going there. and so I was I I just still wanted to to be involved in in theological education and but I didn't realize that the Lord was forcing it back into the church where he wanted it to happen instead of in in schools and stuff and it became very apparent when we moved up north in the north of Kenya and we would send these guys down to Bible school and these NGOs these non-governmental organizations food for the hungry and world vision and stuff would really vulturize these young men.

They would hang around the schools and they'd pick off the best and brightest of these men and they would give them huge salaries and brand new SUVs and tell them you're our representative now for our NGO. Now what young man is going to turn that down? As opposed to going back to his village after he gets his Bible degree and get a salary that can't even put a liter of fuel in his brand new SUV, let alone get him an SUV.

I mean, so they were snatching up our guys left and right. So we said, that's enough of that. And so it forced us, it was a good thing, but it was detrimental in one sense, but it was a good thing because it forced us back to church-based theological education. So we started training our guys up there, and that school is still going up there, even though we're not there.

I mean, I didn't actually even get to see it started. I was working toward it, but the Lord took us away before it actually started. but in the years afterwards it started and now in the village where we were the young man that's the pastor in that church was trained in that ministry so it was a good thing but it's detrimental in many cases where they just disappear these young men just disappear into these NGOs and we never see them again Emma I'm trying to think about how to phrase this question So many years ago we had a missionary who was a woman who was single. And she came in and tried to get a teacher.

So would you consider, is that something, like we have a, I wouldn't say a church in Toronto, it's a very large single population as well, and women too. Is there a place where those people can go? I mean, they're obviously not elders in the church, But is there, is it still, would you still consider using church resources and call the missionaries and put them in a place that would help the local church somewhere?

So like whether it be education or medical, you know, there's a church standing wherever that needs help in this area. And, you know, it needs someone who's educated this way to help. is it appropriate for a church-saving capitalist person, a single male or a woman, that we can support and send over there? No. I'm so sure. I'm not watching this at all.

Well, as you described it, that would be counter to everything that we've said in the last day and a half. Now that said that said I think there a way for her to do that I not saying that there not a way I just would not use only church resources call her a missionary and send her out just like that I would not do that. Is there, what's that? That's what I would be looking for.

I would be looking for a team because, think about it, her little niche that she's doing, important as it is, it's just that. It's kind of a little niche, but if you think of ecclesiology and the whole fulfillment of the Great Commission and planting churches and everything, it comes clear pretty quickly that she's doing maybe an important thing, but it's not the whole thing. And so she really needs to find herself in the whole thing.

But our culture is so individualistic. I mean, we're all about, I've got to do my thing, and I've got to get out there, and I've got to specialize, and I've got to do this. It's like, no, you don't. You actually need to find your place in the whole picture, right, and be part of a team. So would you say, like, which part was calling? Calling that person a missionary?

Is it calling that person a missionary or is it using the church resources? Both of them. I would say because when you earmark church resources like that, that's a partnership. You're saying we're putting our stamp on that as a valid ministry that we see is in compliance with Scripture. I wouldn't be able to do that if, you know, just specifically in the way that you described it.

I don't think I would be able to do that. So, what? Can you describe a team like that? Suppose it was a nurse. Suppose she wanted to go in. Go in and she's going to be a nurse.

Yep. That's right. Her dad's a pastor. It's not going to be a problem. I think it's an illustration of women who really have a heart for missions. But is that supposed to sway me when you say they have a heart for missions No I not It funny because you to draw a picture of what someone like this how they can get involved Right, right, right.

How it can. Right. I mean, you say a team. What is a team? Right. No, that's good.

And don't misunderstand me when I say it. That's supposed to sway me. There's a whole lot of sentimentalism in missions that, you know, romanticism kind of stuff that is just not scriptural. scriptural. It is not biblical. And so we need to be able to see that for what it is. But no, I would be looking to get her part of a team.

If I see that she has a real sincere passion for it, that passion is going to come from the Holy Spirit. If it's the real deal, it's not going to be drummed up in herself and it's not going to be, you know, somebody else next to her saying, you know what, you really need to know how to do this kind of thing. It's going to be the Spirit to God, just like it was in Acts, saying, I want this person, I want this person.

And so I think that if that's the case, then we're going to be praying and fasting, and we're going to be looking for opportunities for her to either join a team or do what she's doing, but don't call it missions and don't use church resources. Hang on, real quick, real quick, because when I say that, she can still go over and be a minister and be a testimony for christ that's who's who's yeah but who says we got to call her anything why can't she just go over and minister and be you know and and be a testimony in doing what she's doing right why not why not renounce your american citizenship and go become a citizen in in another country and do that hey paul i would say that this missionary they're talking about was part of a team, the ELIC. They weren't part of the ELIC.

Some of them were part of a missionary, exactly. But she was part of a team that was in China. Right. And then she, what, began operating outside the parameters of the team, or what? She retired. Oh, she retired.

Okay. Right. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, no, it's, it's a good question. I not sure if I can answer it I think it started to really look at what our definition would be But I mean it was something that I thought about a lot growing up Yeah yeah no It started falling into the field I was like, great, now I have to think about this. Hang on, you were going to say something earlier.

No, I was just thinking if there, I think the plan is, like if the team is already there. Like I follow, I follow 20 schemes, I don't know. I do. In fact, we use, we use Mez McConnell's stuff in our church. Yeah, I would have a lot of what he has to say. And, you know, he's like, we have a huge, like, we need women to come in and help.

Right, but those women going into that situation are going to be operating in the context of local church. I know that for a fact. Well, yeah, I know, but it's like, well, how is she supposed to get there? Like, say I want to do more in terms of support. Okay, I got it now. In that case, you're just doing a transfer from one church to another church.

You're not really sending her out as a missionary. But if another church contacted us and said, hey, you know, we've got a ministry here that requires women to do a lot of stuff, and we don't have the women to do that here. Do you have any women that could come over and help us? I don't have a problem with that because they're functioning within the context of that established church over there.

We're not sending her into a situation where there's either no church or anything like that. So it's more of a relationship between two churches, and the elders of both of those churches have decided. See, she's still operating within the context of the church and the ministry. So that's what you were talking about. Right. Right.

Okay. Financially, I think that church is going to have to make that decision. I don't know that I would probably stand up here and say a mandate about that. I think if a church just initially I would think that we could probably see ourselves maybe financially helping that individual if it was a clear between two churches situation and that we're helping that other church I don't think we would have a problem with that there might be some other things we would need to look at but yeah I think preliminarily we might consider that let me hear Oh, yeah.

Yeah, one thing I think we've got to hear Paul say It's not, we're not going to support someone who does that. Right. But when you call something missions, when you say stand missionary on it, then you're saying this is a biblical missionary. And what he's trying to say is elders are biblical missionaries. Now we may support this nurse or this person working on a T-norm in that situation, but the moment we stand missionary on it, people get the idea this is what the Bible means by missionary.

You follow? So you have to be careful how you label it because what you do teaches something. So we need to take the label missionary off of it. Well that's what I meant by my question. Is it wrong to call them a missionary or is it wrong to support or love? That's what I meant.

I understand. We can't call a woman that we're sending over a biblical missionary because she's not qualified to be an elder. I get that. The church is starting a school, and they need teachers. They say we need to get some teachers over here for a couple years to get this thing going Would it be appropriate for the church to say here a teacher that we have I would look very closely at that situation again to ascertain what the role of the church is in that ministry actually Because a lot of times, it's the medical work, the educational work, whatever, just seems to rise up above the whole situation and the church sinks down and stuff.

So we might be extra sensitive now, I don't know, but we're going to be much more interested in what the church is actually doing. Education is great, medical stuff is necessary, people got to eat, all of that. But we have to look at the church because I don't have to tell you that all of those other things can be in place and you will spend eternity in hell.

Okay? So those are not the priorities. If I remember right, the Grace Covenant ministry policy has a complication for support workers. Yeah. And it clarifies that a percentage of the ministry budget is limited. We self ourselves to 15 Only 15 of our budget can go towards that support ministry But that us Explain support ministry.

Well, I mean, anything other than basically the elder is considered. And that's going to be the teacher. It's going to be medical supplies, food, whatever. Somebody going out to do some other aspect of the ministry. important things that the church is involved in and maybe it's an educational thing maybe we're sending a female teacher out to help with the homeschooling of the families involved maybe there's a couple of elders out there and between them they've got seven kids and we're going to send her out there to help with their education but she's a support worker She's not a missionary.

She's out there to support that work. And the church will even give some money toward that. But we self-limited that. We didn't get into this, but we also self-limited short-term missions. We will give money to certain short-term missions, but pretty narrow parameters. And it only like a certain percentage up to So it limits that as well And that just our way It not the only way but it's our way of putting feet to it, saying this is how we're going to do it.

It doesn't mean everybody has to do it that way, but this is how we're going to do it. Okay? I think our time's up. Unless there's some burning question. can I pray and then okay father we thank you again for a wonderful opportunity to be together and think through these things lord we know that you give us wisdom from above when we ask and we we ask for that now lord as we think about the fulfilling of the great commission and all that's involved there and the the many different situations and things that we're seeing in the church and in organizations, Lord, grant, we just pray that you'd grant leadership, wisdom, even the leadership here at LaRue, that, Lord, you would help them as they think through these things and the church as a whole, Father, as they think through what you are accomplishing in and through them with respect to missions.

Well, thank you, Father, for all that you'll do in Christ's name. Amen.