The Water That Divides- A Scriptural Understanding Of Baptism Week 1

All right, let's pray. Thanks, Father, for our time together. We pray this would be profitable. Help us, Lord, to learn this for Your glory and not just for our information. Help us now as we consider these things. In Jesus' name, Amen.

I was thinking of asking the deacons and the elders to meet me after the service, but two things constrained me not to do that so that we'd have this lecture this afternoon. The first is I was sworn by a bunch of people that said, don't you dare cancel. We've been looking forward to this for months. So don't even do it. And the second thing is there's no way I want to be called yellow.

Or yellow. All right? Okay. This is our first lecture in our Systematics on Sunday lecture series. And what we want to do is take the time to work through some systematic theology. Now, I'm going to start out at the very beginning.

What do we mean by systematic theology? What are we talking about when we use that term? Wayne Grudem has written in his book, Systematic Theology, systematic theology is any study that answers the question, what does the Bible teach us today about any given topic? And so it draws on the entire Bible. Rather than utilizing individual texts in isolation from one another, like expository preaching, which just takes a text and deals with what it means, systematic theology attempts to relate the various portions of the Scripture that speak about the same topic and organize it into a systematic, coherent whole.

Alright? Now the Bible is not a theological textbook. You don't open the Bible and it says chapter 1, the character of God. Chapter 2, the works of God. chapter 3. What is man and what does he do? It's not organized like that.

It's not a theological textbook or a systematic theological textbook. It's more like a storybook showing how God reveals himself in his works through from beginning to end. And you know, I would liken it to almost like a biography. It's God telling his story from beginning to end. And from that, we choose things We ask a question, what is God like? And we look at how his story unfolds and we take it.

It's kind of like, Antipasma's life is an unfolding story, okay? Girls, I'm not just picking on the boys for illustrations now. So someone asks, what is Antipasma like? And so you go through her unfolding story and you pick out facts. Someone says, did she work? So you go, okay.

As a child, she helped her mom. in high school. She worked for Jim Lynch down at the store. She was in a library, a librarian at two different libraries. She's a substitute, permanent substitute teacher who is trying to launch her own businesses. Now, deeper questions then flow from that. And you look at all this stuff.

Like, what does that tell you about the kind of work she likes to do? So that's what we're doing in systematic theology. Did she have a family? And so you go through a whole story, you choose those points that talk about family, and you put it together in a coherent whole, and then you even ask more questions of that and see what it tells you. That's how systematic theology works.

That's what it does with the Bible. So you say, what is God like? Well, you see him in creation, you see him at Sodom and Gomorrah, You see him at the Exodus. You see Jesus' miracles. And then there are some direct statements about God. Just tells you straight out what he's like.

And so you conclude as you go through the book, God is omnipotent. Okay? Now, you don't start out. Chapter 1, God is omnipotent. You look at the whole story and you say, you know, as I look at God working in the world, we conclude he's omnipotent. Okay? so you read through the whole scriptures and you say god is a triune being now again you don't go to one place and it says god is a triune being you don't do that you go through all of scripture and you look at all that it says and you come up with that concluding coherent statement god is a triune being being you read through the scriptures about human beings all through the ages in the bible and you say, you conclude, man is a created being, created in the image of God, corrupted by sin, needing a salvation that is external to him.

Okay? That's, as you go through the whole scriptures and you ask the question, what is man? That's what you conclude. And so systematic theology tries to take all of what the Bible says about a topic and make it into a systematic, coherent whole. Okay? answering that question. Now, you may not realize this, but all of you do systematic theology.

Everybody does systematic theology. When you say to someone, the Bible says that everyone needs to be saved, you're making a systematic theological statement. You're saying, when you look at the Bible, this is what it tells you. Alright? You say, nothing happens by chance because God is sovereign. Everything is part of His plan.

Well, how do you know that? Because as you read through the whole of the Bible, you say, okay, why do things happen the way they do? They happen by chance or is there something else? And what you do is you look through the whole Bible and you come up with a concluding statement God is sovereign Nothing happens by chance So you do theology all the time By the way you heard me say it all the time The question is not whether you a theologian The question is whether you're a good one or a bad one.

Everybody operates with theology. All of you do systematic theology. You take what you know and you organize it. okay um now i'm going to say something really quickly about theological terms don't get in the habit of saying oh why do you use 50 words for 50 cent ideas well for one thing they're not 50 cent ideas and for another the big words often if not always most of the time give you a better understanding of the concept because you have one word that will say it.

So if I use the word epistemology, it's not a theological term, by the way, it's a philosophical term. If I use the word epistemology, what's your epistemology? That's a lot better than saying, how do you know what you believe? How do you know what you know? right? How do you know what you know? And how do you know that's the right way of knowing?

And epistemology just sums all that up right there. That's what I'm asking you. I'm asking you all those questions. So when it comes to theology, don't, you know, don't start saying, why is he using such big words? Because they're better. Okay?

And so the answer is, learn them. Don't complain about them. All right? I remember my philosophy professor in college he was lecturing away and one kid had the courage to raise his hand and Professor Greer looked at him and said yes, he goes, Professor Greer could you please define your terms and he looked at this kid right in the eye and he said in your syllabus you have listed a philosophy of philosophy or a dictionary of philosophical terms.

Buy it. Okay? So what I'm saying to you is, if you don't know the term, write it down, look it up, ask about it, but get used to using the theological terms. They're much better at explaining. Okay? Again, yeah, we have to define those.

We have to talk about what that means. But then once you know that, that term will suffice to deal with all the questions that pop up in that area. So we're going to begin with a systematic understanding of baptism. That's the first thing I wanted to tackle. There will be other things we'll talk about, covenants, character of God, and so forth. But we want to start with baptism.

We want to look at what the Scriptures have to say about it. Now, what I want to do is introduce you to some things today, introduce you to some things that I think are important. The first is, there are basically two views of baptism. There are basically two views of baptism. And in this study, we're going to compare and contrast two views of baptism.

One is paedo-baptism, and the other is credo-baptism. Okay, paedo. Now here's a good example. Paedo-baptism, why are you using that kind of terminology? because it explains it. That's why. Don't ask me again.

Alright? Paedo-baptism comes from the word paedo, which means child, which comes from the Greek word pais, which means child. Okay? So, you put the two together, you get infant baptism. Paedo-baptism means infant baptism. Okay?

Well, what's credo baptism? Alright, it comes from the Latin word credo, which means I believe. Okay? I believe. So therefore, when we use the term credo baptism, we're talking then about believer's baptism. And so we're asking the basic question, who are the proper subjects of baptism?

Infants and children or those who have professed faith. Which is the biblical view? Paedo-baptism or credo-baptism? Okay? That's what we're going to be looking at. I call this the water that divides because this is where denominations divide.

Right? This is where we divide. We divide in our view of baptism. Okay? Now, do you know any paedo-baptists? I mean, let me just give you a list of a few.

Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, Jay Adams, Paul David Tripp, R.C. Sproul, Sinclair Ferguson, Jonathan Edwards, William Tyndale, Tim Keller, J.I. Packer, Jerry Bridges. All those guys are paedo-baptists. And by the way, when we talk about this, you know what I don't hate paedo-baptists in fact how's this for a statement some of my best friends are paedo-baptists right some of my best friends and some of my best teachers on my shelf are paedo-baptists in fact there was a time in my life where I wanted to be a paedo-baptist really badly I mean man I wanted it I was talking to Dave Durnland yesterday and he was in the same position years ago and he says, Tim, isn't it great that God saved us from Presbyterianism?

Which is not to say I hate Presbyterians because one of the most influential guys in my life was a Paedo So, anyway. All right. Now, within Paedo-Baptists, there are differing views. Within that group, there are differing views. Okay? First one we want to look at is the Roman Catholic view.

Roman Catholics are Paedo-Baptists. They baptized infants. The difference in these views revolves around what does baptism do. Okay? It revolves around that question. What does baptism do?

Alright? In the Roman Catholic view, then, baptism is necessary for salvation. It's necessary for salvation. Okay? that is to say, if you're not baptized, there's no way. Well, they'll make a few exceptions, of course. But as a whole, unless you're baptized, you're beyond what they would call grace.

You're beyond salvation. Now, why do they say it's necessary? Well, they say that the Lord affirms it. Well, we all know the verse, John 3, verse 5, says, unless a man is born by water and the Spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of God. So they say there, Jesus sees and teaches it. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we see this statement.

The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation. Okay? So they're really up front about that. They're not hiding anything. They say it's necessary for salvation because the Lord affirms it and because it is the cause of forgiveness and regeneration. All right.

If you don't know what regeneration means, it's a theological term for the fact that you're born again. You're given a new nature. You are cleansed, okay? So listen to the Catholic catechism. By baptism, all sins are forgiven. Original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.

Here's another statement. baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte a new creature, an adopted son of God, who has become a partaker of the divine nature, member of Christ, and co-heir with Him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit. That's what they're saying. When you bring the baby to be... And listen, I'm choking down the word when I talk about baptizing infants, because I don't even think the mode is baptism.

But for sake of just keeping things smooth, I'll use the term baptism. Alright? By that, they bring the infant to baptism. By that, all their sins are washed away. They have forgiveness. They're cleansed.

They become co-heirs with Christ. Right? All of that. All of what we're used to seeing in terms of what it means to be saved. Here's another statement. Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God to which all men are called.

The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant baptism. The church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer baptism shortly after birth. Okay? There it is. So it's clear from their own statement of faith that baptism actually gives you new birth, brings you forgiveness for all your sins, makes you a co-heir with Christ.

All of these things happen when the baby is baptized. Now, the act of baptism itself confers the grace of forgiveness and regeneration, being joined to Christ, and so forth. It actually confers that grace. The act of baptism actually does that. Now here's a statement that you need to know. It's a Latin statement.

It says, ex opere operato. Okay? Ex opere operato. Which means, from the work performed. Okay? I should have put that on there.

It means, from the work performed. What does that mean? When something acts ex opere operato, what they're saying is it does not depend on the faith or the worthiness of the recipient. Okay? Baptism actually brings new birth by the act of baptism. It doesn't matter whether the person has faith or whether, in their view, he's worthy enough.

Now, this also is true. It does not depend on the personal worthiness or orthodoxy of the priest. That doesn't matter either. Okay? That doesn't matter. If the priest is some degenerate, right, and he baptizes that baby, it works.

Ex opere operato. Doesn't matter what the infant is like. It doesn't even matter what the priest is like. It just does its work. The sacrament of baptism itself accomplishes the regeneration of the person Okay Are you with me You got it So if a priest has sired six children on the side, even though he's supposed to be celibate, and he's questioning the doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope, if he baptizes that baby, it's a done deal.

It's a done deal. It doesn't matter about what he's like or what the infant's like. The act of baptism is what gets the job done. Right? So baptism, they conclude, baptism is therefore appropriately ministered to infants. All right.

What about the Lutherans? What about the Lutheran view of baptism? Lutherans also believe that baptism regenerates the infant but it does not work ex opere operato so here's the difference does the baptism save the baby? yes but not in the same way that the Roman Catholics say it's not just the act itself well you say to me and I asked this question for years.

I don't get it. One of my great heroes, Martin Luther, brought back to the church the idea that you're justified by faith alone. How in the world can anybody be regenerated by baptism? And here's what they've concluded. They believe that God justifies the sinner through faith. They still believe that. but baptism works faith in the infant.

So he's justified by faith. Now, of course, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, what? You mean the baby actually exercises faith? Well, not exactly. But faith, then, is worked in the infant.

Now, here's their reasoning. Here's their reasoning. the word of God produces faith in the hearer right first Peter chapter 1 that we are given new birth by the imperishable seed of the word of God when you share the gospel with someone that very word produces the faith that it calls for right we all know that yes the word of God produces faith The Spirit uses the Word of God to produce faith. Well, so the Spirit can use baptism to produce faith in the infant.

Alright? Baptism can do the same thing. Baptism, like the Gospel, is powerful to produce the faith it calls for with its promises. In fact, they would say to you, the Spirit can work faith through the Gospel and baptism, whatever instrument He chooses, He can do it. By the way, I believe that the Spirit can do that. He can do anything, can't He?

Alright? But I'll never forget what Pastor Good, one of my mentors in counseling said, and I love it. yes, God can do whatever he wants to do but we ought to expect God to do what he says he'll do. Right? He hasn't said that about baptism although I'm getting ahead of myself. So, here's one writing a fellow by the name of J.F. Johnson writing about this.

In Lutheran understanding it is no more difficult for the spirit to work faith in infants through the gospel promises attached to the water of baptism than in adults alienated from God through the proclamation of the gospel in preaching. So what he's saying is, it's no more difficult to believe that the Spirit works through the promises that are pronounced in baptism to work faith in a child. That's not more extraordinary than the Spirit of God working faith in someone through the proclamation of the Word.

You can use both or either one. We shouldn't expect the Spirit, the Spirit can do that. Alright? And so for them, infants then are appropriate subjects for baptism. So those are the two first views. Now the last view of paedo-baptism is the Presbyterian or Reformed view.

Now when I use that term Reformed in this context, Presbyterians are Reformed in their theology. That is to say, let's go back in our history. There was the Lutheran Revolution, right? Where Martin Luther launched the revolution called the Protestant Reformation. A few years later, guys like Zwingli and Calvin came along and emphasized more doctrines like unconditional election, although Luther did that too, but unconditional election and the things that we're all used to, total depravity, right particular atonement all those things and that was called the reformed branch of the of the reformation so there's the lutheran and then later what's called the reformed the reformed where the presbyterians came from the reformed faith spread across europe all the way to england and to scotland and the reformed faith is what influenced the scots and the puritans and so So Presbyterianism came out of there.

But on the continent of Europe, there are other Reformed bodies that are called Reformed, like Christian Reformed Church or Dutch Reformed, like in Holland and places like that. So they're called Reformed churches. Over here are Presbyterianism. Presbyterian churches, they believe the same thing, they got different names. Are you with me? Okay?

Alright? So, for example, my family came out of the Continental Reformed people, the Dutch Reformed. Pazma's came from the Netherlands. And so, up until my grandpa, they were part of the Reformed Church. Alright? So Presbyterians or Reformed, same thing.

Now here's what they say. baptism does not regenerate or save anybody. So let's get that right now. Let's get that straight. Presbyterians do not believe that baptism is the means by which God saves people. All right? It is not the means by which God saves people.

It doesn't regenerate anyone. And here's the nubbins of the argument. Here's what you have to get. baptism is to the new covenant infants what circumcision was to old covenant infants. So, circumcision, Old Testament. New Testament, baptism. Now, when you look at circumcision in the Old Testament, circumcision was the outward sign of entrance into the covenant community.

As such, it did not save anyone. All right, to be a member of Israel. You were born into the nation of Israel. Eight days later, you were circumcised, and that brought you into, that was a sign that you belonged to the covenant community of God. But it didn't save anybody. Look over at what Paul's argument is in Romans 4.

Okay? Let's look at Romans 4. because that soon became equated with if you're circumcised and part of the covenant community of God, you're all right with God. And he's trying to make an argument even about the Old Testament. Here's what he says, Romans 4, verse 1. What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather, according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

For what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. Now, to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift, but as his due. And to the one who does not work, but believes in him, who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness. Just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works.

Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin. Is this blessing then only for the circumcised or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he'd been circumcised?

It was not after but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised, or not merely circumcised, but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

So Paul argues that even in the Old Testament, they were what? They were counted righteous by faith. Circumcision did not save you. Faith saves you. Faith has always saved God's people. It's not circumcision that saves you.

And so our Presbyterian friends would say that circumcision brought a person into the covenant community, but it did not save them. Well then, what's the advantage of circumcision? What is the advantage of it then? Well, let's look at what Paul says about that. Back in chapter 3, verse 1, he asks that question. Then what advantage has the Jew, the one who's circumcised, or what is the value of circumcision?

Much, there's great advantage in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. What does he say there? God set apart this people, and you are circumcised to become part of that people. It is to that people that the word of God was entrusted. Of all the nations of the earth, who had the word of God written?

Just the Jews. And it was from them that we get our Bible. Okay? So what's one advantage? You are in the nation where the true God revealed himself. All right?

Look over at chapter 9. He says the same thing in chapter 9, verse 1. I am speaking the truth in Christ. I am not lying. My conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart, for I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.

They are Israelites and to them belong the adoption, the glory the covenants the giving of the law the worship and the promises To them belong the patriarchs and from their race according to the flesh is the Christ who is God over all blessed forever. Amen. You see what he's saying? They also had the sacrifices, the temple, the law, all of these things that revealed God to them.

That was the advantage. All right? It brought them into the community where God revealed Himself in marvelous and different ways. That was the advantage of circumcision. Okay? So, circumcision doesn't save in the Old Testament, but it brings you into the covenant community where you have all of these things that reveal God.

You have something that all the other nations didn't have. Now, our paedobaptist friends then would say That baptism is the outward sign of entrance into the new covenant community. So what they're saying is there's a one-to-one exchange between circumcision and baptism. There's a one-to-one exchange. Baptism is the new covenant equivalent of circumcision.

And like circumcision, it is applied to the infants of people, particularly parents, who are already part of the covenant community of God. And like circumcision, it doesn't save anyone. But it brings him or her into the covenant community and it makes him or her a member of the church. That's one thing to remember. When we talk about entrance into the covenant community, when that baby is christened he is then is a member of the church he is enrolled his name is on the role of the members of the church okay because he's now part of the covenant community and like circumcision it brings you into the community where god has revealed himself in a special way There you are brought into the community where parents at your baptism have vowed that they're going to bring you up in the admonition and nurture of the Lord.

You're surrounded by people who care for you, who love you, who will teach you, who will rebuke you. You're surrounded by all those other people. And you have the Word of God preached to you all the time. You're in that community. And it has discipline. to help you live a godly life. So, just like Old Testament, baptism brings you into the covenant community, not to save you, but to make you part of that community and expose you to all the advantages that come as being part of that community.

And so, if baptism is like Old Testament circumcision, then infants are proper subjects of baptism. Okay? now why why are we doing this let me give you a couple reasons why I wanted to launch on this or why we're even doing systematic study here's the first because I've spent nearly 37 years in expository preaching right and if that's all we do which is pretty much all that we've done with some exceptions in Sunday school and stuff then we tend to be weak in systematic theology. I wish I'd thought about this 28 years ago, but be that as it may.

We tend to be weaker in systematics. And so this is an attempt to help us get stronger. I mean, you could do systematic theology and listen to all the sermons that I've ever preached. And I've preached through a ton of books of the Bible, but not all of them. and so we have a certain weakness there and so I want us to get stronger I mean that's my desire it's not that I want it the other guys had to pass on this too but it's kind of my vision I guess here's another reason in the last few years we've had plenty of folks asking questions about our view of baptism in the last three years we have tons of people that have been raising this question and so we need to tackle it.

We need to tackle it. And lastly, I don't think we've ever undertook, we've talked about it, we've showed some things about it, but I don't know that we've ever undertook a real systematic study of baptism. And I think that's what we need to do. So today, you know, with this, we embark on the study of baptism. And I hope in these times together with you, I can show you that our view is the one that most closely accords with Scripture.

Okay? I am, you know what, I wasn't growing up, but I don't know, somewhere in my 20s, I became a Baptist by conviction. And by the way, can I say this? The more reading I'm doing now, I have, no pun intended, Dennis, no pun intended but for the last several weeks I have immersed myself in Presbyterian literature okay and the more I read their defense the more I'm convinced they just don't get it they're missing the mark in major ways and I don't say that as a matter of pride okay I don't say as a matter of pride.

But I am saying at once I thought, wow, they got great arguments. But the more I read the deeper I go the less convincing it is And so and not just that but I become more convinced of a lot of things in the Bible that impinge on this And those are the things we want to talk about. So next week, what I want to do, we're not going to talk about the Roman view or the Lutheran view.

I don't think that's where most of us are struggling. I can't imagine any of you struggling with that. but the paedo-baptist view that's expressed by the presbyterians is the one I think that really is the one that hits us the hardest so next week what I want to do is to build their system show you how they got where they are to outline for you their theological structure and their biblical their view of the bible that brought them to their views. That's what I want to do next week.

And then the following weeks we'll look at critiquing and building. Okay? And then we've got to spend at least one week on mode. Why dunk somebody as opposed to just, you know, on their forehead. Right? Why do that?

Okay, so that's where we're going. Now at this point, okay, I want to keep this to no longer than 45 minutes, and that's really stretching it. So right now I think we're at 40. So you've got five minutes to ask questions, Annie. Yes, Ann. Ann.

Yep. Yep. I've not seen him even touch that subject yet have you Andrew? yeah but no Presbyterians yeah and Annie you're jumping the gun that's one of my critiques right there that's a radical departure why even mess with the girls why even do that now so okay by the way Andrew I've never read anybody say anything about that, but then you're more widely read in the Baptist than I am.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay? Any other questions? Yes, Daniel. The baby refuses the baptism.

You mean by crying and squalling and fighting? That's interesting. The Lutherans would say that the baptism does not take effect if someone's resisting it. Well, how does a baby resist it? I don't know. I don't...

So, okay? Levi? So, we've all known people, maybe not so much in the Catholic tradition, in the Presbyterian and the Lutheran, you know, I think these are important distinctions, but what is the practical the difference that these things... We've known people who live their lives faithfully before the Lord who have this. I guess the question is, why is it important that we make these distinctions?

What is the practical difference in the way we live our lives? I think one of the practical differences, one that comes immediately to mind, is the complacency that I see. I'm not talking about what I've read, but what I've seen. in people's lives who have paedo-baptists as paedo-baptism as part of the theology there's a certain i think complacency that settles over them let me give you an example so i'm flying out to teach at this little bible institute in montana and we're supposed to change planes in great falls or something like that one of those towns on the east side of the mountains and they canceled the flight.

So I went to rent a car and there was one car left and a woman was going to Kalispell and I was going to Kalispell. And so we rented the car together and we drove and I found out she was a Presbyterian. In fact, she was part of the church where Ken Sandy went. Ken Sandy who wrote The Peacemaker. His church is in Kalispell. And we were talking and got into that and chatted for a while and I asked her about her kids and she said something like well one of my girls is far away from the Lord but she's a covenant child and she'll come back.

Alright? That really struck me. Even though they want to avoid even though they want to avoid it I think it has a very practical implication of people trusting in their baptism more than in Christ. Another thing I've seen is that because I've been baptized, and this is what grows, all these different things grow out of your system once you go a certain way.

Okay, so now they get to be about 12. What do we do now? Well, now we have confirmation where they're confirmed in their faith. And again, you're confirmed in your faith now. Yeah, we know that you accept it intellectually, but it doesn't make any difference in the way you live your life. My dad, who was unlike me, was no friend of Reformed churches because he grew up in an area where it was all Reformed churches And his experience was and again I not saying this is the way everybody is because they not I know plenty of Reformed people who believe in a strong proclamation of the Gospel But I remember Dad saying, you know, where I grew up, as long as you knew your catechism, you're headed for heaven.

So in some sense, those are the outgrowths of it. It affects your church polity. It affects your church polity in a major way To then be put out of a church after, since you've been baptized as an infant, that's a, you know, to be put out, man, that just takes unbelievable amount of legal shenanigans. Okay? now again Jay Adams who's been one of the most influential men in my life is one of the best theologians of progressive sanctification and how you grow and how you have to grow but then again he's not your typical Presbyterian either but so I've learned a lot so in some sense there isn't a lot but in other senses there really is and it just historically it plays out in all kinds of ways in terms of relationship of church to state even that is affected by your view of baptism on a personal level sometimes it doesn't look like there's a major difference but in some of these other levels there seems to be much more am I hitting all the cylinders Andrew? yeah Yeah.

Yeah. So you always have a mixed, you always have a mixed congregation. They're part of the congregation. It doesn't mean they're saved. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why our form of Baptists are. Yeah. Yeah, we grew out of the Puritan movement. The Puritan movement was Reformed theology in England. Okay?

And that's where the Puritans came from. And we came out of the Puritans. So, at the start, we had real heavy connections with Reformed people, but certainly soon became distinguished by our view of baptism. And Levi, the last thing I would say is, if we're going to say as Protestants, let's do everything under the authority of Scripture, then if that's what Scripture teaches that's what we need to do.

Isn't that a danger just within any system? Even within reformed systematic theology we end up trusting the system and whatever things we put in place is not the way we do it. Sure it is. Sure it is. I think, though, you're right. All of us have certain things that may lead to complacency.

But I would say that sometimes that complacency is almost structural. In other words, baptism is part of you becoming part of the church, and therefore... Here's what I mean by structural, for example. Okay? How does this structurally do it? It's just part of the structure.

Here's how. Because they use terminology in this like baptism engrafts you into Christ. Am I right, Andrew? They use that in their baptismal formula. Well, man, talk about confusing. When I read that, I think someone who's believed in Jesus.

But they talk about being engrafted. They said, you're now under the new covenant. Well, okay, what does the new covenant promise? It promises that everybody in the new covenant is forgiven of their sins. Everybody from the youngest to the oldest knows God. And I've got to read more.

I don't know how you get around that. But when you hear the things that your baptism brings you into the new covenant, structurally there, you've already got something that's going to, to me, almost feed complacency. but again again to their credit they'll say no no no no no no no you know it doesn't mean automatically that you're a Christian well then why do you keep using terminology like this brings you into the new covenant I don't get it hopefully through all this study I don't become a Presbyterian but I don't see it happening I don't see it happening alright Okay, well, let's pray and we'll be done. Thanks, Father, for our time together.

We pray that this would be a profitable time. Help us, we ask, so that your name will be honored and glorified. In what we're studying, not, Lord, to win arguments, not to beat other people over the head with the truth that we have grasped, but instead to be more faithful disciples of Jesus. So help us to that.